The Cecil Hotel has been sitting in the heart of Los Angeles, California since 1924. Located at 640 S. Main Street, the Cecil Hotel started as a luxury destination for wealthy businessmen, but the hotel was hit hard during the Great Depression and never truly recovered. Throughout its 99 year history, the Cecil has seen over 16 deaths due to murder or suicide. It also served as a temporary home for two notorious serial killers (Richard Ramirez AKA The Night Stalker and Jack Unterweger AKA The Vienna Strangler), and the last known sighting of Elizabeth Short, the Black Dahlia, was at the hotel’s bar, but those old stories had faded into obscurity for many people until 2013, when 21-year-old Elisa Lam went missing while staying at the Cecil Hotel.
Call 988 to Contact the Suicide & Lifeline
Sources:
Suspicious Death: Elisa Lam from Uncovered
Elisa Lam: The Real Story Of Her Death In The Cecil Hotel from All That's Interesting
The Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel: Every Elisa Lam Theory, Explained from Screen Rant
Elisa Lam Mystery | Mental Health & Personality from Dr. Todd Grande
What Are Bipolar Disorders? from American Psychiatric Association
All the conspiracy theories about the disappearance of Elisa Lam at the Cecil Hotel from Cosmopolitan
See ya next Wednesday!
Intro/Outro Music: A Creepy Music from Music Unlimited
Instagram: @wickedwithinpodcast
Website: wickedwithinpodcast.com
The Cecil Hotel has been sitting in the heart of Los Angeles, California since 1924. Located at 640 S. Main Street, the Cecil Hotel started as a luxury destination for wealthy businessmen, but the hotel was hit hard during the Great Depression and never truly recovered. Throughout its 99 year history, the Cecil has seen over 16 deaths due to murder or suicide. It also served as a temporary home for two notorious serial killers (Richard Ramirez AKA The Night Stalker and Jack Unterweger AKA The Vienna Strangler), and the last known sighting of Elizabeth Short, the Black Dahlia, was at the hotel’s bar, but those old stories had faded into obscurity for many people until 2013, when 21-year-old Elisa Lam went missing while staying at the Cecil Hotel.
Call 988 to Contact the Suicide & Lifeline
Sources:
Suspicious Death: Elisa Lam from Uncovered
Elisa Lam: The Real Story Of Her Death In The Cecil Hotel from All That's Interesting
The Vanishing at the Cecil Hotel: Every Elisa Lam Theory, Explained from Screen Rant
Elisa Lam Mystery | Mental Health & Personality from Dr. Todd Grande
What Are Bipolar Disorders? from American Psychiatric Association
All the conspiracy theories about the disappearance of Elisa Lam at the Cecil Hotel from Cosmopolitan
See ya next Wednesday!
Intro/Outro Music: A Creepy Music from Music Unlimited
Instagram: @wickedwithinpodcast
Website: wickedwithinpodcast.com
I'm Kate and I'm Tali, I'm welcome to Wicked Within. This week we are back with another true crime case and it is the last case in our spooky season lineup, although you know it's a true crime in paranormal podcasts, so it's always spooky.
Speaker 1:I was gonna do like. I did a really long sad face because it just feels right during the season. But then I thought to myself it's right all the time. Yeah, because we are unwell mentally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't disagree with that. But this week we are covering a case that is pretty well covered in a lot of different podcasts and documentary well, one documentary that I'm aware of. But we are going to be giving you know our own unique perspective, and I already knew like a decent amount about this case before I started it, so I kind of already had an opinion going into it and I will say that sometimes I will have an opinion about something because I think I know a lot about it when I start researching it and then I'll realize that my opinion was wrong, because I didn't actually know anything about it.
Speaker 1:Holy moly, you have, like the ability to look at your opinion and get new information and change your opinion.
Speaker 2:I can do that if I have to. What is that like?
Speaker 1:because I will, I refuse.
Speaker 2:I'm just kidding, I refuse, yeah, but we, um, this is not one of those cases, though, all that being said, this is one of the cases where I looked at it and I was like, oh my gosh, my opinion was wrong. No, I'm thinking I'm 100% correct. So, with all that being said, we are just gonna dive right on in. The Cecil hotel has been sitting in the heart of Los Angeles, california, since 1924. Located at 640 South Main Street. The Cecil hotel started as a luxury destination for wealthy businessmen, but the hotel was hit hard during the Great Depression and never truly recovered. Throughout its 99 year history, the Cecil has seen over 16 deaths due to murder or suicide. It has also served as a temporary home for two notorious serial killers Richard Ramirez, aka the Night Stalker, and Jack Undraveger, aka the Vienna Strangler.
Speaker 1:That was wonderful pronunciation, thank you. That sound is so natural.
Speaker 2:I took German in high school, did you actually? Yeah, how did I not know this? I don't know. And the last known signing of Elizabeth Short, the Black Dahlia, was at the hotel's bar. But those old stories had faded into obscurity for many people until 2013, when 21 year old Elisa Lam went missing while staying at the Cecil hotel.
Speaker 2:Elisa Lam was born on April 30th 1991 in Vancouver, british Columbia, to David and Yena Lam, who were both immigrants from Hong Kong. High school classmates remember Elisa as sweet and friendly, but Elisa did struggle with her mental health. Elisa was eventually diagnosed with bipolar disorder and was prescribed a number of medications to help stabilize her mates. Elisa kept a detailed blog called Nouvelle Nouveau on Templar, where she posted memes, quotes, photography and some of her struggles with bipolar disorder, among many other things. Elisa had been attending college at the University of British Columbia, though she wasn't registered in the spring of 2013 because she decided to take some time to complete a solo trip along the west coast of the United States and maybe even specifically just California. I was never able to determine that for sure.
Speaker 2:After a depressive episode that severely affected her attendance and grades in school, elisa planned to travel by bus and train to visit a few cities and explore the sites. Elisa's parents were nervous about her solo adventure, especially considering Elisa's mental health struggles, but she was adamant about her intentions and she promised to call them every day, so, at least to the outside world. Elisa's exact itinerary is unknown, but we do know that she was in San Diego and posted photos from her trip to the zoo before she headed back north to Los Angeles. As far as I can tell, it looks like Elisa arrived in LA on the 26th of January and checked into the Cecil Hotel on the 28th, though those dates vary throughout different sources. So some say that she went straight to the Cecil on the 28th after getting into town. I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:Reliable sources say different dates, so it was either the 20, the 26th or the 28th, but either way we do know that she arrived at the Cecil on the 28th.
Speaker 1:This feels like it could. It should be very easy to clarify, but it does feel like that.
Speaker 2:I will say that there are a few things in this that do feel like they should be easy to verify and some things that people think are not verified but definitely are, and we will talk about those later.
Speaker 2:As you could probably tell from the intro, the Cecil Hotel is an interesting place with a morbid history and a rocky reputation. The Cecil is located right in Skid Row, an LA neighborhood well known for its high poverty and homelessness rates. When Richard Vermeeris was still actively killing his victims, he would often return to the Cecil and throw away his shirt and other articles of clothing in the hotel's dumpster before walking into the lobby half naked or fully naked and covered in blood, and no one questioned him. So you kind of have an idea of what we're dealing with here.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well, maybe those records aren't the most well kept, then if we're just letting bloody naked people walk it.
Speaker 2:It does beg a lot of questions. In 2013, the Cecil offered a variety of different options, including single occupancy units for long-term residents and hostile style rooms for travelers, but all of these choices came with low daily or weekly rates. Elisa opted for one of these communal rooms in an effort to save money and was placed in a room with a few roommates on the fifth floor. But soon after she arrived, the roommates complained to the hotel management about her odd behavior. There isn't a lot of clarification on what that odd behavior looked like, but Elisa was given her own room after just one or two nights with her roommates.
Speaker 1:What was the year that Richard Vermeeris stayed there? Do you know?
Speaker 2:It would have been in the 80s.
Speaker 1:So I mean 30 plus year difference between naked people walking in the lobby to like which they would consider odd behavior. Because I'm like I was thinking if it was closer and people weren't questioning a bloody naked person walking in but questioning Elisa's odd behavior. It would have to be really odd, yes, no, I guess 30 plus years opinions are different, so okay, okay, yeah, better context.
Speaker 2:David and Yena Lam didn't hear from Elisa at all on the 31st of January. They were concerned but since Elisa was supposed to be checking out of her hotel, they figured that maybe she just got busy and she would call them later. But Elisa still didn't call on February 1st, so her parents called the LA police to report her missing and they booked a flight with their younger daughter from Vancouver to LA. Police quickly determined that Elisa never checked out of the hotel and her belongings had been left in her room. Investigators learned that Elisa visited a nearby bookstore eerily named the last bookstore on January 31st and the manager confirmed that Elisa had stopped in to buy gifts for her family and she described Elisa as friendly, outgoing and lively. Hotel staff also confirmed that they had interacted with Elisa on the 31st but hadn't seen her since.
Speaker 2:Police conducted a thorough search of her room, the common areas of the hotel and the roof, but they didn't have probable cause to search any other guest rooms or long-term residences. After a lengthy search, elisa was still nowhere to be found. Over the course of the next couple of weeks, police continued their investigation into Elisa's disappearance. Over the course of the next couple of weeks, police continued their investigation into Elisa's disappearance. Elisa's cell phone wasn't found in her room and cell records indicate that it hadn't been used since January 31st. Despite all that, elisa's Tumblr blog posted several updates during this time, so that will come back in a little bit. So, despite the fact that she's missing, there are still kind of updates on her blog.
Speaker 2:But it's not through her phone, as far as we can tell, as far as we can tell, no, and it's 2013. So, like phone internet was you know, like any web pages wasn't the best at that point in time. Yeah, on February 13th or 15th again, I've seen different dates Police issued an appeal for public assistance and released a video of Elisa in an elevator at the Cecil Hotel exhibiting strange and unsettling behavior. So Neftali and I are going to watch that video now as a refresher, since I'm not sure if you've ever watched it in full. I feel like not in full, definitely not in full. Okay, and then I'll briefly explain what happens. I will link the video in the show notes and I recommend checking it out for yourself, because we're going to talk about it quite a few more times.
Speaker 2:The door of the elevator opens and Elisa enters. She bends down and selects several buttons before stepping back, as though waiting for the doors to close. The elevator doors remain open, so Elisa cautiously walks to the door and quickly ducks out to peer down the hall before quickly stepping back inside again. She then backs toward a wall and presses her back against a corner, as if she's trying to hide from someone going past the elevator, which nobody does. She then cautiously approaches the door again and slowly looks outside until she jumps into the hall. She steps into the elevator and back out again. When she comes back in, she hits all of the elevator buttons for every floor, but as soon as she does, she walks out into the hall again and looks as if she's having a conversation with someone just out of the camera's view. It's also at this point that she starts moving her arms and her hands with her fingers spread wide, as if she's swimming, and then she starts making movements as if she's signing something in ASL. She wanders out of the frame and the elevator door finally closes.
Speaker 2:The timestamp is blurred so it's unclear if this happened during the day or at night, but police confirmed that the footage was taken on February 1st. Despite the plea for assistance, there were no news leads. We're going to spend a lot more time, as I mentioned, discussing this video later, so if you get a chance, go check it out before we get into the theories on this case. For several days, hotel management had received calls from numerous residents complaining about issues with the water pressure. The water was also discolored and coming out black before turning clear again, and it had an odd smell and an odd taste Ugh an overly sweet taste.
Speaker 1:Oh, really sweet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's how it was described. On February 19th, maintenance worker Santiago Lopez decided to go and check on the water tanks located on the roof of the hotel. He went to the top floor and disabled the emergency alarm that would alert hotel staff of any other guests open the door to the roof. He grabbed a ladder to climb up on top of the water tanks in preparation to lift the heavy metal lids, but he noticed that the lid on the main tank was already open. When he peered inside, he saw a woman's face staring blankly back at him, floating about 12 inches from the top of the tank.
Speaker 2:Ew Police were notified. The tank was drained and a coroner was called to the scene. The woman was naked, but a watch, a hotel key card, shoes and clothing were all found in the tank. Since police knew that Elisa had disappeared while staying at the hotel, they already had a strong suspicion that the woman in the tank was their missing tourist. The clothes seemed to match the items seen on the surveillance footage from the elevator and she was later identified definitively as Elisa's lamb based on distinctive body marks that she had, like a birthmark or something like that it doesn't go into a lot of detail, but that's what it was.
Speaker 2:An autopsy was performed, though the results weren't made public for many months, which ended up being a bit of a thing, so put another pin in that. But for right now we're just going to cover the results of that autopsy report. There were no obvious signs of trauma, though Elisa's body had been in the tank for several days and likely several weeks, which meant that her skin was discolored and slipping in places and her body was a bit bloated, making skin deep trauma difficult to determine. A sexual assault kit was ordered and no signs of sexual assault could be detected. However, it's worth noting that many physical signs of sexual assault would be hard to detect after three weeks in a water tank. They didn't find any semen at the same, which is the thing that would be really difficult to find, but there wasn't any vaginal trauma.
Speaker 1:I guess if someone had bruising in any way, should it perform with water, preserve that or not.
Speaker 2:It wouldn't necessarily preserve it, but those internal injuries would probably be more intact than those skin deep surface level injuries. A toxicology report was requested and it revealed the presence of several prescription medications, which wasn't unexpected given Elisa's diagnosis of bipolar disorder. There are three different diagnoses that fall under the bipolar umbrella Bipolar 1, Bipolar 2, and Cyclothymic. Cyclothymic.
Speaker 1:I never took that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, these three different diagnoses are used to differentiate symptoms, but overall, most people with bipolar disorder can expect to vary between mania or hypomania and depression, which I'm going to explain in more depth right now.
Speaker 1:Is hypomania the like slash depression, or is that a different thing? It is a different thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Mania and bipolar disorders is usually characterized by periods of high spirits or irritability that often lasts a week or longer. According to the American Psychiatric Association, this might look like decreased sleep, faster speech, racing thoughts, distractibility, increased activity and risky behaviors that are out of character for the individual. Hypomanic episodes look similar to mania, but the symptoms are often less severe.
Speaker 1:So Okay, I was going to say I can be all of that, but less of the like.
Speaker 2:But lasting a week or longer.
Speaker 1:Yes, like a day or two, maybe. Also not the risky behavior part like I can be Distractable is that a word? Yeah, yeah, distractable Racing thoughts, high spirits but Not for long periods of time and it doesn't ever lead me to like risky. So when I first heard the list, I was like this could be someone who just has like a better balance of energy. But you know, it's the the time frame.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, that is. That is what it is. Major depressive episodes can be characterized by periods of two weeks or longer when an individual has at least five depressive symptoms, which may include intense sadness, loss of interest in activities, feelings of worthlessness or guilt, fatigue, increased or decreased sleep, increased or decreased appetite, restlessness, difficulty concentrating and frequent thoughts of death or suicide.
Speaker 1:Major depressive.
Speaker 2:Yes, while it's true that everyone experiences mood swings, particularly during turbulent times in their lives, mania or depression may start without reason or warning, and they can last anywhere from several days to several weeks or even months. So, with all that in mind, I'm going to give a brief description of the medications found in the toxicology report from Elysis autopsy. So the first one was effects, or which is an SNRI antidepressant, very normal. The next one is now. I am not a doctor.
Speaker 2:You will forgive me if I can't pronounce all of these correctly Qtyapine, an FDA approved drug often used to treat schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. La motrogen, an anti-convulsant often used in the treatment of siege of seizures, though the immediate release version of the medication is also sometimes used to treat bipolar disorder so well. Buterin and other antidepressant. And Dexadrine, a stimulant often used to treat ADHD symptoms. People who are being treated for bipolar disorder are asked to use caution when using dexadrine alongside their bipolar medication. But it's also not uncommon to see anxiety, depression or or ADHD as Like a comorbidity along with bipolar disorder.
Speaker 2:But here is something worth noting.
Speaker 2:Based on the autopsy report, it looks like all the prescription medications were confirmed with the pharmacist back in Canada, with the exception of dexadrine, which was the ADHD medication. Now, it is possible that this was just an oversight in the autopsy or that she was prescribed it by somebody besides the Doctor in Canada, but it's not impossible to get ADHD medication even when it's not prescribed. From talking about yeah, illegally, yeah, they also found traces of Advil and over-the-counter pain reliever and fever reducer as well, as I don't know how you say this because I've actually never used it, but science in you tab, sign you tab and over-the-counter medication used to treat sinus related issues like cold, flu or allergies. Based on the trace amounts of prescription medications in her system, it was clear that Elisa had taken an antidepressant on the day that she died, though the other medications were found in smaller amounts, which could have been a result of decomposition, or it could mean that she hadn't taken her other medications on the day of her death and possibly a couple of days leading up to it as well.
Speaker 2:There were no indications of illegal drugs and though ethyl alcohol was detected in her body, it was found in relatively low concentrations, which were consistent with the state of decomposition. Okay, based on the results of this autopsy report, elisa's history of bipolar disorder and the evidence collected at the Cecil Hotel, the cause of death was officially ruled as an accidental drowning At Atlanta. Elisa lands death was a tragic accident and we are going to explore that in much more depth at the very end of the episode. But this case has spiraled out of control into some theories that run the spectrum from completely plausible to absolutely wild. So let's start with the more plausible theories. Okay, due to Elisa's history with bipolar disorder, her blog documenting her struggle with mental health and her odd behavior leading up to her death, Some people believe that she took her own life during a manic episode. According to the National Alliance of Mental Illness, up to 50% of people with bipolar disorder will make a non-fatal Suicide attempt and up to 19% of people with bipolar disorder will die by suicide.
Speaker 1:So what I am intrigued at those statistics is that it doesn't clarify and I mean, I guess we don't really know if they're by themselves when they are attempting their suicide. But I, if I am going by the definition of what manic is. It's, it's a high, it's a Mm-hmm, a Good state, but elevated, like a very elevated, better state of mind than a major depressive episode.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm and it seems unlikely that someone would commit suicide when they're in their manic state versus, like, a major depressive state. So maybe I just don't know enough about these stats for me to determine like, yeah, I would agree, that could be possible, because I would. My assumption is that people who do successfully complete their and successful the relative term who do complete their suicide, they they do that during a depressive episode versus in their manic state. So, and also already don't agree with the suicide Theory theory because she was naked like yes.
Speaker 1:So, or the drowning theory. I guess I should say she may be suicide, but definitely not an accidental drowning if she was naked.
Speaker 2:Okay, we'll come back to that later and more depth. So, yes, people, according to that same source, people do tend to Complete suicide or attempt suicide more frequently during a depressive episode, but people might be more likely to die from an accident or, or you know, during a manic episode due to some reckless behavior. So, yes, some people have theorized that maybe Alyssa left Canada so that she could take her life alone and that her family didn't have to find her body. But while this may be like a plausible theory because it is possible, like that can happen and it's not outside of the realm of possibility I also don't believe that this is what happened, and I'm not alone in that opinion and either yes.
Speaker 2:Be. Some people will automatically label people with mental health struggles as suicidal, even when that isn't the case. Alyssa's autopsy Specifically noted that she had no prior history of attempted suicide or self-harm and she was making plans for the future. She stopped by the bookstore to buy books for her family and, given her openness on her blog, I tend to believe that she would have made some allusion to suicide if that was her intention. Of course, it's possible that she made a sudden split-second decision, because that also does happen, but the facts of the case don't really seem to support the suicide angle.
Speaker 2:Okay, I Think that there are some very strange details in this case. So I'm not surprised that many people believe that Alyssa Lam was murdered, and I don't rule that out as a possibility either. So, as we go into it, there are kind of two separate paths within this theory. So let's start with the stranger slash hotel guest version of events. As we discussed earlier, the Cecil hotel is located in a very sketchy area of Los Angeles. Its location and low rates mean that there is no shortage of suspects. For the record, I don't think that everyone's staying or living at the Cecil at the time we're there for nefarious reasons by any stretch of the imagination, la do be expensive.
Speaker 2:And you gotta do what you gotta do to get by, but living or staying in a dangerous area Means that you are more likely to be a victim of crime. Additionally, alyssa's phone was never located, so some people have wondered if her murderer took the phone as a souvenir or if they stole it because it may have had some kind of evidence on it. There was surveillance footage of Alyssa meeting two men, and this has sparked speculation that one or both of them led her to her death, which would be a decent theory. But those men were actually identified as employees from the bookstore, yes, and they were helping her to move her books from the store to the hotel.
Speaker 1:How many did she?
Speaker 2:get. Apparently it was quite a few. She actually even kind of was joking with the bookstore Manager that she was like I don't know how I'm even gonna get all of these things. Like I, it's gonna be a lot to carry. So it was quite a few, quite a few items. I did Google the last bookstore, by the way, and it was charming they had it's really cute in there. I just love a good bookstore Anyway.
Speaker 1:I wonder if it's more obvious. It's probably the intention of the name wasn't like a spooky, the last bookstore, more like we're the last store that offers physical books, because it was the era of digital age I don't actually know, but the the name in this particular case is eerie.
Speaker 2:It's also been alleged that Alyssa left threatening notes for her roommates although I have not seen that confirmed and that they killed her out of revenge or fear or something. But that's kind of where this theory starts and stops, feels real like a a Poor plot for a horror movie. Yes, which actually is going to come up later. There is no evidence to suggest that this is what happened and I really do believe that her roommates just wanted her to be moved and she was so Again. That's kind of where it starts yeah.
Speaker 2:There's another theory about a death metal musician who goes by the stage name morbid. This is super flimsy so I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on it, but Morbid posted a video in February 2013 From a trip that he took to the Cecil hotel, and some people think that his lyrics mirror details from Alyssa's death.
Speaker 2:Keep in mind he is a death metal musician, so you know, but, as it turns out, morbid was actually at the Cecil a full year before he posted the video, so he would have been there in 2012, not 2013. Okay so we can quickly rule them out and like move on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, very flimsy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then there's the other theory, which involves employees at the Cecil hotel. Some armchair detectives have pointed out that a hotel employee not like a Wait armchair detectives, that's what they call them yeah, not like a specific person, but just a staff person from the hotel who would have known how to disable the door alarm to Isolate Alyssa on the roof. So they've kind of indicated that that is a theory. But again, there isn't a lot of specific evidence to support this theory. In my opinion, there are a few reasons why this Theory, the murder theory, gets a lot of traction. Number one her missing cell phone.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Number two the fact that she was discovered naked, which you mentioned. Number three she was discovered in the water take on the roof despite the door alarm. Number four it looked as though Alyssa may have been talking to somebody in the elevator footage. Number five Her blog continued to post even after she had gone missing, which is just interesting Like does somebody get a hold of her blog information or what happened there? And number six there are a lot of sources that will say that the lid of the water tank was closed when Santiago Lopez went to inspect the tanks for water issues and If the, there wouldn't really have been any way for her to close the the lid of the tank Herself once she was already in there. So that would be very suspicious.
Speaker 1:Didn't Santiago Santiago, when he was investigating it? Didn't you say that he found it open? He found it open. Yes, the one that she wasn't in particular, because the other ones were closed, they were heavy, whatever. Yes, but the one she wasn't in particular was open. That is what I said, yeah, so they're just assuming that he lied and that it was closed and that's why it could be murdered.
Speaker 2:There is just a lot of misinformation around this case, so I don't know. I think some people think that he lied, some people think maybe he's misremembered, and some people are just Mmm, continuing to quote things that that actually are not true, because there are actual court documents From his testimony that he says no, I found the lid open. It's what caught my attention in the first place. Yeah, yeah again.
Speaker 2:We will come back to that in more detail toward the end, but it is a good note. Yeah, so, and this is, and this is where we come back to the horror movies.
Speaker 2:So, there are also a lot of people who have noticed the similarities between the death of Alisa land and a 2005 horror movie called Dark Water. In the movie, a little girl it's drowned in a water tank and no one notices until the water starts to look and taste odd. So, and also, I'm not saying that like it does happen at like a hotel or like a building downtown, and it's not called the Cecil Hotel, but the daughter's name in this one is Cecilia and the mom's name is Dahlia, as in the black Dahlia, who had her last meal at the Cecil Hotel, and there are ghosts involved and water to it. It's all very like. It's very weird.
Speaker 1:That is a lot of weird coincidences, but that's basically where I would yes.
Speaker 2:I completely agree. It's weird. Yes, and some people think that you know this. Alisa's death was like as a result of some kind of twisted reenactment of the movie. I do not personally think that's what happened, but here we are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I Don't think she would have. I Mean I guess it would be more like on the suicide path. But if she was trying to commit suicide she would look for something Similar to Dahlia or Cecilia to go stay at. Yeah, I mean you only had a water tank. No, makes no sense. No, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:Nope, oh Okay. So Prepare yourself, because now we are entering the wilder theories in this episode.
Speaker 1:Okay, these are the like Unlikely, but like could be, maybe. But now we're in the like yes, they're just weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now we're just getting into straight up weird territory. So our next theory says that the government infected Elisa with tuberculosis so that she could spread the disease to homeless people and they would get sick or die and then they wouldn't have as much of a homelessness problem.
Speaker 1:Through the water.
Speaker 2:No, just by living there. And then they had to kill her to cover up the fact that they infected her with tuberculosis.
Speaker 1:There's easier ways to release tuberculosis, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:You know this is what I am saying, but okay, so this part is weird. The test that they used to test for tuberculosis in HIV positive patients, which a lot of the people in Skid Row are, is called the lamb Elisa. So that is the actual name of the test that they use and it is spelled exactly the way that her name is spelled.
Speaker 1:Was this. This test has been around for a while, though.
Speaker 2:Tuberculosis is the thing, yeah, but people are like she's taking over the counter sinus medication. Maybe she was sick or anything like that. And why did it take so long for the government to release her autopsy results? Was that, were they like trying to cover up this whole conspiracy?
Speaker 2:No, no, If the government was going to infect the Skid Row community with tuberculosis they would have had an easy time giving it to one of the many homeless people who lived there and could spread it for weeks, months or even years without notice. Right, it's also worth noting that there were no signs of tuberculosis in Elisa's autopsy, and it takes like it can take a long time for tuberculosis to really turn into something where it's like let alone on like a water bloated body. Yeah, no, it's just, it's not a great theory. No, I get it.
Speaker 1:Also like the name coincidence. You're telling me that somehow the government found two immigrants from Hong Kong and were like, yes, this name matches, we are going to use this person.
Speaker 2:It's, yeah, it's bizarre. Our next theory involves some of the infamous alleged ghosts that continue to haunt the Cecil Hotel. Black Dollia yes, that's right, actually. So here's the thing actually, she doesn't have a hotel. No specific ghosts are, like, identified as far as I can tell. So everybody thinks that the Cecil Hotel is haunted, but I can't figure out by whom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but some people have the most generic ghosts. Yes, not even the lady in white, as a generic no. It's just unnamed, undescript yeah.
Speaker 2:Indescript. Indescript. Thank you, you're welcome. Yeah, no, it's just just a ghost, not even somebody on the stairs. That's the other. Like go to. It's either a lady in white or a person on the stairs, and it's neither in this case. I can't find anything definitive.
Speaker 1:Black.
Speaker 2:Shadow. Yeah, nope, nothing. Some people have suggested that the Cecil Hotel lured Elisa to her death, like Mel in the Haunting of Hill House.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Again, if you're going to listen to this podcast and you don't like spoilers, you probably should just watch the Haunting of Hill House and Bly Manor. Yes, we have not seen Fall of the House of Usher yet Not High on the Priority List though. No, the trailer didn't throw me. This is a tangent, but if somebody has seen it, can you tell me if it's worth committing so many hours of my life to watching it and the reason?
Speaker 1:we say this is because there was I think it was Hill House where we had the sleepover, was it Hill House?
Speaker 2:And I legit stayed up until like two or three am to finish that series, yeah, so I need to know if it's worth it in this case, because it was worth it there, yes, but I'm not convinced by the trailer. So anyway, moving on, elisa's odd behavior in the Elevator is sometimes explained as a ghostly interaction, and some people have even claimed to see a dark figure in the Elevator with her and an eerie distortion at the end of the surveillance footage. That looks like a demonic face. So did spirits haunt the Elevator? Did they stop the doors from closing? Because those doors were open for a long time and they did close when she left.
Speaker 1:Do you want my analysis of the paranormal side of that? Because?
Speaker 2:I was looking for it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I did not see any weird distortions. For me it was like a very obvious lighting thing. Also was 2013 and I'm in a really old hotel, not super convinced the camera quality would have given you. Yeah, like, it was no, like what was that one football player that, like, was beating his girlfriend in the?
Speaker 1:That was very clear footage, like very clear. This was like a little grainy, slight frame delays, like even the part where you talked about like her hands doing creepy things and as a believer of the creepy I was like it just looks like poor camera quality making it look weirder, like her hands looked a little alien, but I think it was like camera distortion.
Speaker 2:I actually don't think that that was true. In that case, I think that that was actually what her hands were doing, because the rest of her arms weren't distorted and her legs weren't distorted.
Speaker 1:No, but her fingers looked to me, they just looked really long and long.
Speaker 2:They were very hyper extended, but I actually think that those were her hands. Yes and yeah, and I actually don't think that was a distortion.
Speaker 1:I think that was just. She just has long fingers. There is like a syndrome for people with like longer fingers.
Speaker 2:Well, the way that she was moving them would make them look longer and like the hyper extension. I don't know I have baby hands because I'm just a really short person.
Speaker 1:My hands, just don't do I mean.
Speaker 2:Double jointed people would have the ability to move their hands back pretty far, yeah, yeah. So if you're double jointed in your hands, which she might have been then you absolutely could move your hands back in that way. I will say that people who are like I think I come onto it later but people who are mental health experts do say that those hand movements in particular are associated with mania and bipolar disorder.
Speaker 2:So that's not Interesting, yeah, so just the movement of her body wouldn't have been unusual for somebody who was in a manic state. Okay, okay, so that's something, yeah, but her Probably not ghosts.
Speaker 1:No, even the parts of the video where she moves to the side and it looks like she's letting someone in feels more mental health related than it does ghost related, Because I mean her movements were exaggerated.
Speaker 1:And I think if someone truly believed that they were having a ghost encounter and fully believed that there was a ghost, slash, real person there, it would be as simple as me letting someone walk through the door, just oh sorry, and then move on with my life. But hers was very exaggerated. She moved to the corner. It wasn't like she. It looked like someone who was in a kind of not scared state but like paranoid.
Speaker 2:Yes, paranoid, I think, is it? So that's why some people use the elevator footage to back up the murder theory, while other people might use it to back up the ghost theory. Obviously, if you're going to use the footage as like evidence of something that isn't mental health, people do tend to think it's more the murder theory, or more people do think it's that, than the ghost theory. But either camp could use it to their, you know.
Speaker 1:I think it would fit better with the ghost theory but is not convincing. Yeah, because even with the murder theory, the paranoia and like her looking out to the hallway to see if anyone was there, that makes sense. Her moving out of the way when the doors remain open doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:Her movements almost look at times like playful, Like when we were watching it I said it looks like a Tom and Jerry cartoon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the very beginning, it's a little bit, it's a little bit funny yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, if you weren't concerned about her. It would be kind of like cartoonish.
Speaker 1:Like you said, drunk, getting on an elevator.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but and she wasn't drunk, because we know from the autopsy results. But if you didn't know that, you might have seen. That's what happened, right? I?
Speaker 1:mean like, but I did, I even thought to myself I didn't say it out loud because I mean we were just watching the video, but I did think like if she's not drunk, she very much could be having like a psychosis from being high. And the dexadrine, dexadrine yeah, it's a schedule to substance. I think it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a stimulant because it's an amphetamine used to treat ADHD.
Speaker 1:So if that's not part of her normal prescription which we couldn't verify because it wasn't on the prescription list with her doctor in Vancouver, yeah, in Canada In. Canada and she got it off of the street Like maybe she could have been in this psychosis because she was high plus her mental health, like it's a very likely possibility. But yeah, again, the autopsy wasn't clear that she was like intoxicated, like she had substances, but like Right, no, but.
Speaker 2:but none of them were like illicit, illegal substances. They were all prescription which doesn't you know.
Speaker 1:Obviously she didn't get it illegally, like she very much could have gotten her dexadrine illegally.
Speaker 2:Yes, 100%. So yeah, we, we don't know for sure, but yes it is. It's worth taking all that into consideration and I will go into it in more detail later on. So, on a similar note to the ghosts, some people suggest that Elisa was playing the elevator game. What is that?
Speaker 2:I'm glad you asked because I have a I'm going to explain it right now. Okay, the elevator game is a super creepy urban legend that seems to have originated in South Korea. So here are the rules, which I have taken directly from elevatorscom, and, if you want to check them out yourself, I do link this in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Elevatorscom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, I didn't know that was a thing, but it is. It's about elevators, believe it or not. The first requirement to play the elevator game is that you must play alone and you must be in a building with at least 10 floors and an elevator that can reach all 10 floors. It doesn't matter what time of day you start the game. As long as you were the only person on the elevator, you must start over if other people get on the elevator at any point, with one exception, and that is covered in the rules, but you're going to see later. Okay, so board the elevator on the first floor and press the button to go to the fourth floor. When the elevator gets to the fourth floor, do not get off. Stay in the elevator and press the button to go to the second floor. When the elevator reaches the second floor, again do not get off. Press the button to go to the sixth floor. At the sixth floor, stay in the elevator and press the button to go down to the second floor. When you reach the second floor, stay on the elevator and press the button to go to the tenth floor.
Speaker 2:At this point, some people claim to have heard a voice calling out to them. It's important that you do not answer or acknowledge the voice in any way. When the elevator reaches the tenth floor, stay on and press the button to go to the fifth floor. On the fifth floor, a woman may board the elevator. Some people say that she is a stranger. Others claim that she bears a resemblance to somebody in their past. Either way, do not acknowledge her in any way. Do not even look at her. The woman is not human. Some claim that if you acknowledge her, she'll take you straight to another world with no chance of escape. Press the button and go to the first floor.
Speaker 2:If the elevator descends to the first floor, the ritual has failed and you need to leave immediately. Do not look back or speak. Just exit the building and don't look back. However, if the elevator ascends, the ritual has succeeded and the car will rise to the tenth floor. This is your last chance to back out of the game. If you decide that you don't want to continue, press the button for any floor besides the first or the tenth floors to cancel the game.
Speaker 2:When you reach the tenth floor, you can choose to leave the elevator or stay on board. If you choose to exit the woman who entered on the fifth floor may ask you where you're going. If so, do not look at her or answer. Just exit the elevator. It's at this point you will find yourself in another world, sometimes called the other world, where electronics don't work and everything is dark. Saved for a bright red cross that is a little bit more dark. It's saved for a bright red cross that may be reflected in the windows.
Speaker 2:Do not lose sight of the elevator you arrived in.
Speaker 2:It's the only way that you can get back. If you didn't leave the elevator, you can press the button to go to the first floor, wait for the elevator to descend, get out as soon as it reaches the first floor, then exit the building and return home without looking back or speaking at all. If you left the elevator, you must use the elevator you arrived in and repeat the ritual Go to the fourth floor, then floor two, floor six, floor two, floor ten, floor five and then floor one. The elevator will begin to ascend to the tenth floor. You must press the button for any other floor to stop it before you pass the ninth floor, then descend to the first floor. When you reach the first floor, do not exit until you check your surroundings carefully, even if the smallest detail seems off. You must stay in the elevator and repeat the ritual again until you are confident that you have safely returned to your own world. Once you are sure you are safe, you may exit the elevator and return home without talking or looking back at all.
Speaker 1:So there are so many rules, I would mess it up, even if I wanted to get to the other floor, even if I wanted to get to the other world.
Speaker 2:I could not remember how to get to it. I just keep looking down at the notes app on my phone and I'm like okay, so one, two, three.
Speaker 1:What floor am I supposed to not look? What about my room here?
Speaker 2:I was like well, I also wondered if you played the game on a trip and you can't look back or talk to anybody until you get home, does that mean that you can't talk to your Uber driver? That would be super fucking rude.
Speaker 1:It would be rude. You would get a one star review. I think so.
Speaker 2:You just have to give them a 50% tip to be like I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:They're getting on a plane and they ask if you have any electronic or explosive devices. You just got to silently shake your head and then you're on the two guys' lives. Yeah, I guess I can see why some people thought she was doing that and I guess if it had somehow got on her radar that this is a game and she was in a manic episode where she has some difficulty like tracking reality in some way shape or form. She would have thought that she was playing a game, but it just reach. It's a reach.
Speaker 2:It is a reach. Yes, so people seem to like this theory because Elisa looked like she had an intention when she entered the elevator and started pushing buttons for various floors at the hotel. So people ask the question is it possible that she tried to play the elevator game but lost and she died as a result? So to answer in a word no, yeah. It's truly unlikely that any of these theories are the actual series of events. So it's time to bring things full circle back to the original place theory that Elisa died as a result of an accident.
Speaker 2:Okay, so first let's look at her state of mind. We know that Elisa was dealing with bipolar disorder. She was taking mood stabilizing medications at the time, but dosage needs to be adjusted on occasion. I'm just speculating here, but if Elisa was just coming out of a major depressive episode, her medications may have been adjusted to stabilize the depression. If she started to enter a manic period, she may have stopped taking some of her medications, which isn't uncommon in people with bipolar disorder when they do enter a manic phase.
Speaker 2:It's unfortunately impossible to tell from the toxicology report due to the state of decomposition. But if Elisa was still taking her antidepressant but not taking medications to stabilize the mania. Those antidepressants could have pushed her into an even more manic state, especially if she was combining them with ADHD medication which wasn't prescribed her. But even without that it can push somebody into a more manic state because you're doing all of the things to combat the depression and none of the things to combat the mania. So the elevator footage and this is where we come back to those hand movements could also be indicative of psychosis. Those psychosis can happen in either a manic or depressive episode. It happens more frequently when an individual is experiencing mania. This psychosis can lead to delusions or hallucinations which may explain her odd hand movements and behavior. Did she really see someone in the hall or did she just think that she saw someone? Without audio it is impossible to determine for sure, but I know what I think.
Speaker 1:And I know what you think and I know what a lot of people think.
Speaker 2:So, with all that being said, I'm going to address some of the lingering issues from the murder theory, which, in my opinion, is the other most likely scenario in this case.
Speaker 1:Although less likely.
Speaker 2:Yes, we will get to that, but yes. So let's start with the missing cell phone. Elisa was staying in a sketchy hotel in a crime-ridden neighborhood, so it's possible that her phone was stolen, or, if she was in fact in the midst of a manic episode, she may have left it somewhere and not even realized it, to be honest. Next, let's move on to the clothes, which are definitely the weirdest factor, in my opinion, in this case. I heard some people say that clothes may have come off during the decomposition process, which seems unlikely to me personally, but according to dr Grande, who is like a mental health professional, people experiencing mania will sometimes remove their clothes because they don't like the feeling of restriction that they have when they're wearing clothes and they have a certain lack of inhibition that they would normally have if they were in like a good frame of mind.
Speaker 1:I kind of was gonna equate it to like when people feel frostbite or oh, yes, yes, when you start to have hypothermia and you overheat. Yes, yes, 100% like she could have. I mean what? What time of the? I mean.
Speaker 2:It was LA, but LA can still get cold.
Speaker 1:It was February and then water.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no one 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so so to be honest.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure why she would have like thrown her clothes into a water tank, if this is, and then climb in after them. It's possible that she slipped or had something else going through her mind at the time, like if she was hallucinating. She might not have known what was going on, and I don't. I still don't know, even in a hallucination, why you would throw your clothes in, but I I haven't experienced hallucinations, so I'm probably not a good person to ask about this anyway. Alright, so let's take a look at that door alarm again. How could Alisa have accessed the roof without triggering the alarm? This is why some people think that a hotel employee was responsible for her death. So here's the thing the hotel was equipped with fire escapes, as as one should. Yes, yes, that went all the way to the roof, and at one point a tracking dog alerted to her scent on the fire escape.
Speaker 2:Okay so there was an indication that, even if she didn't use it was, she probably did that she was there at some point. So there also the blog post issues. Did somebody log into her account and then post for her, which she will lie for longer than we thought that she was? Well, here's the thing about tumblr.
Speaker 2:The thing is is that you could Cue certain posts to appear for the future, and a lot of the posts that she made Were kind of generic seasonal updates and all of this kind of stuff rather than, like you know, her more detailed Descriptions of bipolar disorder or something that seems particularly like weird or malicious or something like that that somebody who killed her Might have posted so again seems Unlikely that was genuinely like.
Speaker 1:My first assumption was like maybe she had like delayed Posts. You are correct, but I didn't know if the technology was available in 2013.
Speaker 2:It was so a lot of people who were like avid tumblr users of the time were even like well, it seems like she just queued them up ahead of time. At the end, this is what we're seeing, and I tend to agree that seems like the most logical Explanation.
Speaker 1:I don't really even know how that would have happened, or anything like right so yeah, and I guess the other layers, she doesn't have her phone to do it through that Manor, through that method. Yeah, so during her manic episode she finds a computer at a library, at a bookstore, at a shop and is like Let me just post this really quick, very, very, very unlikely right, yeah, I agree, yeah, seems sketchy, yep, yep, yep.
Speaker 2:And again. And I just don't know why somebody else would do that, especially if they weren't gonna be like like what's the point of posting, like happy fall, you know, after she's dead, just to be like look at what's happening?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did, it's just it yeah, and it's not even like a to throw People, no type of thing, no cuz, no cuz.
Speaker 2:Everybody knows it was national news. This is a very famous case. Yeah, 100% Okay. So, last but not least, we did discuss it earlier. But a big sticking point for a lot of people is the lid on the water tank because, again, if she had jumped into the tank there was no way for her to have Close the tank once she was in there. However, again in Testimony, in like in court in an inquest, santiago Lopez Said that he climbed on top of the water tank and he maintains that it was already opened when he arrived. Again, it was a notable enough detail that it caught his eye and he remembered it specifically in later retail links. So, based off of what I have presented so far, what is your opinion about the most likely scenario here?
Speaker 1:With the exception of a few details which are just odd I Not even odd, like they're all pretty explainable Mm-hmm. I really think she was just going through like a mental health crisis. She was having hallucination, she was in a Psychosis of some sort. I really think that Dexadrine messed with her. Mm-hmm. Regardless if it was a new prescription that hadn't been put on the like roster yeah or she got it off the streets illegally.
Speaker 1:Whichever the case, maybe it really messed with, like the rest of her medication. A huge adjustment, yep, especially if she wasn't taking anything for the mania anyway right. And I I have seen many a police reports of people who are in a psychosis, mostly drug induced, but like they see weird stuff, yeah, okay, they really have the craziest rationalizations for why they did something and I could absolutely, if she survived, could see her saying like you know, I saw this water tank and thought it was the swimming pool. Into heaven and.
Speaker 1:I had to go and make it or something. Yeah, I could have absolutely First seen someone some psychosis doing that Mm-hmm, if the opportunity presented it, she could. Went up the fire escape. She saw the, the open tank and was like, okay, this is how I get there. Yeah, could absolutely see that as a mistake and like if she's again not in her right mind, or even just like Plain old body is tired and you're suffering through hyperhypothermia. Yeah just, she just stayed there.
Speaker 2:That is I. I wonder that as well. I saw some reports and I it was actually really weird because I wasn't able to determine this in the autopsy that say that there wasn't any water found in her lungs. But even if that is the case I can still easily explain it away no one would have heard her. It took, you know, if she could have died because, as you mentioned, it does still get cold in LA, especially in February. You know, honestly, she could have died from exhaustion if she was trying to stay afloat for that long and or exposure. I mean, you could die from hypothermia, especially if you're in the water and, and as I think we've mentioned it in other Episodes before, you do not have to be that cold to die from hypothermia, hypothermia, especially if you are in water. So I think that there are just a lot of factors there that lead me to believe that, even if she didn't drown, that she probably died in that water tank and it was probably as a result of an accident.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fortunately. Yeah, I stand by what I said earlier. I don't think it was an accidental drowning, and then, if it, I mean I don't know how likely it is to find someone with their face afloat.
Speaker 2:That part is unusual, which is like another thing that people have pointed to, but the I think from what I understand, the further you get into decomp, them less likely are you are to float face down. I'm not, I'm not entirely sure, but I'm not the right person to ask about that. But it wasn't, it's not like it's never happened. You know what I'm saying. So so yeah, um, yeah, I will also say that she was taking Advil and that Sinus thing. She could have been sick too, which can also totally throw off your body chemistry. You know, I'm not sure how sick she was, but like the Advil could have been for pain relief, but it could have been a fever reducer and the other stuff, the sinus reliever, is definitely for cold, flu or allergies.
Speaker 1:So that's another thing that just throws another element into the possibility of just Mania, you know yeah, and I mean people, even just non Severely mentally unstable or ill, people who go through high fevers. Yes, still very possible for them to lose mate 100% so fever or cold or flu or whatever, like Regular, like flues for me I feel like I'm in a brain fog. Yeah yeah, let alone the mania, and added hallucinations From the mania or the new drug that maybe? Isn't working well with the rest of my chemistry.
Speaker 2:And being in a strange place and they're not familiar with yep, all that kind of stuff. Yep, totally agree. So in my opinion and it sounds like your opinion too this was a terrible, tragic accident, but an accident nonetheless. So if new evidence is uncovered or new witnesses come forward, I'm not so set in my opinion that I couldn't change it, but the evidence in this case really seems to point to an accidental death.
Speaker 2:Alisa was in a new city and seemed to be in a really difficult situation with her mental health. I really don't. I really don't think that anyone is at fault here, mm-hmm. And if you or anyone you know needs help in the midst of a crisis, you can call the 24 7 suicide or crisis Lifeline. It's not just for that, but just any mental health crisis at 988. So if that is in the United States, but yeah, so I really think that that's what's going on here. I think that October 10th was World Mental Health Day. This is, you know, a few weeks later, but it is a mental health month and just you know being aware of this, um practice self-care and reach out to your support system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, like Kate said, the National Crisis line isn't just for suicide.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Keep that in mind. 988, just again. So yeah, this is. It is an interesting case, it's got a lot of attention and I just don't think that anybody benefits from like Perpetuating wild theories. It's okay to look at them, be critical in your analysis of them and then to come to a rational explanation, yes, which is, I hope, what we have provided here. So yeah, so that is this week's episode, and next week we will be back with a paranormal episode. Until next time, bye, bye. If you liked the show, please leave us a great review and don't forget to subscribe on Spotify, app, a podcast or wherever you listen to Podcasts. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at wicked within podcast you.